Curse

Crom The Pale · Dec 10, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

It's not possible to hold agro on any mob anymore, but a Dervish can cripple all adjacent foes with one 5energy skill, thats as close to tanking as you really can get unless your solo.

Dutch Masterr · Dec 10, 2006, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

It's not possible to hold agro on any mob anymore, but a Dervish can cripple all adjacent foes with one 5energy skill, thats as close to tanking as you really can get unless your solo.

well, 3 adjacent foes, but its still a good ability to have.

ogami_ito · Dec 11, 2006, 02:42 AM // 02:42

^^^
1. You ae thinking just about Crippling Sweep? You CAN cripple all adjacent mobs...Aura of Thorns. Better IMHO than Crippling Sweep because it adds an enchant (better for energy management, powering Mystic Sweep, etc), and because when it goes, adjacent mobs are also bleeding.

2. I know if the group is VERY good...better than 99% of all PUGs... and every one of these good players is fully paying attention to what they are doing, you can still somewhat "tank". But for everyone else, that's just not the case. No Warrior or Derv keeps agro when party members move into agro range and attack. So what does TANK mean in this context?

It seems to me that when people talk about TANKs, all they are really saying is that the toon can take agro while requireing less monk-maintenance. From that perspective, Dervishes are MUCH better than warriors. A monk casts Reversal of Fortune on a Derv, and that Derv gains (on average) 150 NET hit-points and 4 energy (+33hp for Divine, up to 50 or so for the RoF itself & up to 50 damage negated, and 12hp and 4e for mysticism). The monks can skip over certain spells too. For example, the Monks own Healing Breaze gives +8 regen to the Derv tank, plus 33 hp from Divine...all for 10e. The Dervs Mystic Regen usually gives minimum +9 (and often +12,+15) regen for 20 seconds, not including a +20% enchant mod, which extends it another 5 seconds. And then there is Healing Light... Monks cast this powerfull heal on Dervs (followed up with Dwana's Kiss) for 5e every 4 seconds, and get back 4e after every cast.

I have decided...Dervs probably "tank" better than warriors for most groups. I say this because for most groups, a pure tank is worthless. If mobs don't attack the tank, you have a meat shield that does little damage but is not taking agro. I'm pretty sure that the Dervs single-target damage output is close or equals a warriors. Maybe not the DPS of a Dragon Slash warrior...but definitely more than an Evicerate warrior. A "Defensive" Derv absolutely out-damages a defensive warrior. And when you add in multiple-target damage, and lower monk maintenance, I see Dervs comming out ahead.

Crom The Pale · Dec 11, 2006, 05:46 AM // 05:46

I believe the role of a war from the start of GW in my mind was more of an interupter than a true tank. They have the ability to charge into enemy fire and reach a caster where they can unleash skills like Savage slash, distruptingh chop or distracting swipe.

The new AI changes actually make wars better at this since they dont face the complete damage output of a mob, but only a portion will pay attention to them.

I see the Dervish tank as a class that will charge in first, maybe with vow of silence up, and force the enemy to waste skills/spells on him that wont kill him. He cant hold the agro but even by making them waste a couple of high dmg skills that would need to recharge can give the party a fast advantage in a battle.

After initial contact the dervish would seek out the largest group of adjacent foes and start swinging. By causing AoE damage with his scythe and skills he forces the monks to spread out there healing and they become less effective.

I see a well balanced team with both a Warrior and a Dervish. The Dervish moves in and causes havok while the Warrior seeks out and deals with high priority targets. As the Warrior sets up one target for a spike the Dervish softens up as many of the others as possible so subsiquent spikes are faster and kills mount up quick.

The Dervish is here to stay and he has earned a place next to any Warrior on a well organized team!

jesh · Dec 11, 2006, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

Defy Pain is an elite…and if the goal is to be the ultimate tank…well…I would not pick it. And these two skills are NOT very good in PUGs for a very important reason… as its ending, you lose a lot of hp. That means you have to have a pretty good monk who realizes this and will heal you, or…your dead.

Defy Pain is elite, and it can easily be kept up constantly due to the duration and adrenaline cost. If your goal is to have higher survivability, it's OK. Why you would EVER take a "tank" in a party is beyond me.

Warrior as an interrupter since the start of GW.. *sigh* OK, let's count all the interrupt skills that warriors have.

1. Critical Chop (conditional)
2. Disrupting Chop - normal attack speed
3. Savage Slash (unusable with current recharge)
4. Distracting Blow (nice skill actually, but just as usable to a warrior secondary)
5. Skull Crack (elite)

So let's see, 5 interrupts for an entire class? Yeah, they sure look like interrupters to me. Yes, knockdowns interrupt, and you could count those, but warriors as a whole were not meant to interrupt anymore than rangers were meant to use pets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

A War can bost his armor for a short time thus allowing him to charge into a mob and deal some damage or inflict a condtion then get back to his monks for some healing. He can instantly bost his armor to deal with most spikes but for most pays a price in mobilitly.

A dervish using the right enchants can sustain perment healing and raise his armor allowing him sustained tanking. Mostly at the expence of having to maintian enchants and cutting down on his offence.

Now im talking about primary classes only here, when you start adding in secondarys the whole thing spirals out of control as both are very adept at using other classes skills to efficiently bost themselves.

1. A warrior can keep constant armor - skills like Watch Yourself! and Defy Pain can be kept up indefinetely, as can stances with the help of On Your Knees!.
2. A dervish has lower base AL to start, and none of the absorbtion abilities that a warrior has against physical damage. Relying on enchants in itself is a weakness when you fight in areas with heavy enchant removal.
3. Neither Dervish nor Warrior have very good second class synergy, most look for skills that can be used with 0 point investment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

As for those that fear the use of enchantments vow of silence gives some nice protection, not complete, but will keep most of your enchantments safe.

For 5...9 seconds, you cannot be the target of Spells, and you cannot cast Spells.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

I say this because for most groups, a pure tank is worthless. If mobs don't attack the tank, you have a meat shield that does little damage but is not taking agro. I'm pretty sure that the Dervs single-target damage output is close or equals a warriors. Maybe not the DPS of a Dragon Slash warrior...but definitely more than an Evicerate warrior. A "Defensive" Derv absolutely out-damages a defensive warrior. And when you add in multiple-target damage, and lower monk maintenance, I see Dervs comming out ahead.

QFT. This is why I don't like dervishes as they are, it seems like they can play the defensive role too easily, while still maintaining damage. Do I have one? Of course, I have to try one before they get the nerf bat.

ogami_ito · Dec 11, 2006, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

So let's see, 5 interrupts for an entire class? Yeah, they sure look like interrupters to me. Yes, knockdowns interrupt, and you could count those, but warriors as a whole were not meant to interrupt anymore than rangers were meant to use pets. .

So here...are you complaining / lamenting warriors don't have enough skills do the job of interrupter, which you believe is the primary role for the class? I have never heard this before. Interesting point of view though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

2. A dervish has lower base AL to start, and none of the absorbtion abilities that a warrior has against physical damage. Relying on enchants in itself is a weakness when you fight in areas with heavy enchant removal. .

I don’t think this is that big of a huge weakness for most areas and for most groups. It can be a weakness when fighting against combinations of melee + enchant removals, without good backup. And that weakness comes from exposure to increased physical damage. Quite a few of these enchants would harm enemies when they are removed though. On the other hand, to effectively keep a warrior healed against elemental damage still usually requires monks place some enchants on them. So when those enchants get stripped, there are fewer covering enchants and protections (accept the warriors has his own damage-reduction skills to help). It comes down to this: what’s more important, beneficial enchants or beneficial stances / shouts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

3. Neither Dervish nor Warrior have very good second class synergy, most look for skills that can be used with 0 point investment skills .

I think when a class mainly relies on second-class synergy, it means the class has more weaknesses. Dervishes make great use of 0-investment skills like wild-blow, Mending Touch (not a zero-point skill, but good anyway), some sin skills, etc. But I would say that it makes it less interesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

QFT. This is why I don't like dervishes as they are, it seems like they can play the defensive role too easily, while still maintaining damage. Do I have one? Of course, I have to try one before they get the nerf bat.

Wait a minute… you are saying you don’t like them because they take the defensive role too easily while still outputting big damage? It sounds like you are saying they are too good and therefore will be nerfed. Is that what you mean?

Crom The Pale · Dec 11, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Ok let me count the ranger interupts....

Distracting shot,
Savage shot,
Broadhead arrow,

so I guess you dont count rangers as inteupters either?

Here is a simple formula for a war interupter:

Savage slash + Distracting swipe + Flourish.

If you dont think this works.....

That was this build + 7 hench, I was kicked out of a party after telling them my build

As for vow of silence it has a 10 second recharge and since most all other enchants a dervish uses last 20-30seconds you can recast duiring the window when its down and then recast vow of silence, it works ive done it.

As for secondarys there is an infinite combination of skills that work for both dervish and wars.
My Dervish runs both a Kinetic armor build and a 'Go for the eyes' build.
My Warrior runs both Apply poison and Meteor shower builds.

Ive run many other builds with both and can say for a fact that ive never run into a problem finding a good use for any secondary for either of these.

While a war can use shouts to keep his armor up, the new nerf not withstanding, his stances are as easily removed as any enchant.

As I belive many have stated a Dervish absorbs damage with massive self healing much like a monk would rather than mitigating the damage with high armor. A war has relitively poor self heals, both having negative aspects to balance them.

If your arument is based on armor that can be maintained then an Elementalist out classes a war as a tank. Armor of earh + Silver Armor + Kinetic Armor + Obsidian Flesh, and with some good energy management this can be maintained almost indefinately....

As stated before, they do not tank in the same manner and do not serve the same purpose in parties. The builds ive listed are not meant to be the only way these can be used just a small handfull of the many ways they are used with great effectiveness. I've run a war as a degen using virolence and a dervish as a party healer with wind prayers.

The possibilities are only limited by your imagination.

Guardian of the Light · Dec 11, 2006, 11:10 PM // 23:10

When it comes to tankage dervishes and warriors are pretty tied

I would suggest bringing one of each for each situation. That is of course if you take 2 melee characters anyway.

ogami_ito · Dec 12, 2006, 12:51 AM // 00:51

^^^BTW I put Go For The Eyes on my derv hero. I usually have it on at least two heros to power derv crits and MM-Army crits. Works great on the derv hero.

Grandmaster · Dec 12, 2006, 01:12 AM // 01:12

warrior:

low self heal
high armor
fast, one target offense
capability to interrupt
minor condition spreading

dervish

HUGE self heal
low to decent armor (70+24 if using conviction)
slower, multi-target offense
cannot interrupt
massive condition spreading

where before a team would take 2 warriors for the frontlines, I believe it should now be one warrior and one dervish. Both have their benefits and drawbacks, but both will be able to survive the front lines.

whobitz · Dec 12, 2006, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Ok let me count the ranger interupts....

Distracting shot,
Savage shot,
Broadhead arrow,

so I guess you dont count rangers as inteupters either?

Hold up, lets look at this again...
Distracting Shot, Savage Shot, Magebane Shot {E}, Punishing Shot {E}, Broad Head Arrow {E} (indirectly), Disrutping Lunge, and Concussion Shot are regular attack skills that interrupt. Incendiary Arrows and Choking Gas are preps that cause interruption. Along the lines of BHA with dazed, you could even go as far as Smoke Trap or Bestial Mauling (though that gets into KDs and would have to include warrior KDs and even stuff like Spike Trap). So that's 8 skills, 9 with BHA (10 with Smoke Trap) that interrupt for Rangers. I guess warriors have 6 or 7 (adding to jesh's list with Agonizing Chop and Dwarven Battle Stance). Granted, Disrupting Lunge isn't always great, and Incendiary Arrows can't be kept up, but Savage Slash is 10 energy with a 20 sec. recharge, Critical Chop and Agonizing Chop are both conditional, the latter having normal attack speed, just like Disrupting Chop. Rangers also have 3 elites dedicated to interupting, warriors have 1 that costs 9 adrenaline and Dwarven Battle Stance. All in all, ranger interrupts are just better. See here for a not really complete list.

Well that was fun, but back on topic, it's not amazingly hard for a Dervish to maintain 109 armor with ~17 damage reduction from foes with conditions (try using Veil of Thorns for that cripple mentioned earlier) and 9+ regen. On the other hand, it's not hard for a warrior to maintain 170+ armor, 300 or even 600+ hp (900+ for a period of time), and have no KDs. The difference is armor vs. self heals (though imo Warriors will always win when facing enough enchantment removal until a good Vow of Silence tank build is made). Those examples are both in a highly tanking sense, and that's probably only useful somewhere like DoA; otherwise, the "tanks" should have some defense with some offense (seems to be the popular opinion) whether they be warrior or dervish.

jesh · Dec 12, 2006, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

So here...are you complaining / lamenting warriors don't have enough skills do the job of interrupter, which you believe is the primary role for the class? I have never heard this before. Interesting point of view though.

Wait a minute… you are saying you don’t like them because they take the defensive role too easily while still outputting big damage? It sounds like you are saying they are too good and therefore will be nerfed. Is that what you mean?

Yes.
And the interrupter thing was someone else's point of view, not mine.
Crom The Pale, look at the recharge on Savage Slash and try not to laugh. Then look at Savage Shot.
If you seriously use those skills on a warrior.. well let's just say there's better things you could be doing. Virulence warriors and Wind Prayers healers are at least *decent* builds, unlike hamstorm.

Quote:

While a war can use shouts to keep his armor up, the new nerf not withstanding, his stances are as easily removed as any enchant.

OK, the only stances that you should be using are Sprint and Frenzy, unless you're using Flail and Enraging in PvE. The only way these get removed is Wild Blow/Throw. I don't think there are any monsters that use Wild Strike.

whobits: somehow those slipped past me, I swear I looked through all my skills. Does Disrupting Accuracy count for rangers? =P
I've always wanted to try that with 2 or more GftE spammers.
Anyways.. I agree with whobits on the warrior tank thing.

Crom The Pale · Dec 12, 2006, 03:16 PM // 15:16

I wasn't trying to say that Warrior made better interupters than Rangers, just that you really don't require a skill bar full of interupts to get the job done.

As for the recharge on Savage Slash youll note I paired it with Flurish for instant recharging.

Its not the quality of the skills that matter in the end its the skill of the player. If you can't time your attacks then even the best ranger interupts are worthless.

And as we've all stated many times now tanking is not just about armor. The best a war can do is mitigate damage with high armor, but he still takes damage and with poor healing hes just prolonging his death if he doesnt get out and find his monk.

A Dervish can boost his armor with inscriptions up to 85 + conviction 24 and Armor of Sanctity to reduce damage from foes with conditions by another 17 points. PLUSS a Dervish has massive self heals so any damage not mitigated is healed and he can continue to attack.

Yes in an enchantment striping battle the Dervish is at a disadvantage, but when was the last time you took a Warrior into the Tomb of Kings?

As for Warrior builds I was in no way suggesting that interuption was the ONLY build a war can run. If you read my whole post you'll note a named two other builds my Warrior runs, and those are just a very small handfull of all the diffent builds that I use.

For both the Dervish and the Warrior his build should reflect the teams balance. In some cases that means a war needs to use interupts in others it means he has to take lots of self heals from his secondary proff. A dervish my require fewer enchants and more damage skills if the monks have him coverd or he may need to take more condition spreading skills to put pressure on enemy monks to lift them.

In the end it all boils down to both the Dervish and the Warrior having many diffent builds and each being able to play as a tank under certain conditions.

IMO the biggest problem facing Dervish's is not there ability to tank, its a total lack of any interupts.

Cebe · Dec 12, 2006, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainman

ok when i 1st got nightfall i made a dervish but whenever i wanted a party for a mission no1 wanted me. today i asked every1 why the hates dervish'. they all replied with they are weak and defensless like assasins. i was shocked that some people would think that!

for 1 thing assasins are strong and defenseful but saying dervish are like assasin??? the only think in common is the armour defense (70 AL).
dervish have loads of skills to do amazing damage and protect themselves. i could go right now stick a few skills together and it would turn out a good build. the problem with guild wars is that it is inhabited by idiots that think because we have 10 AL less than warriors we cant tqank or take damage at all! they treat dervish' like they are casters! i am very tired of them saying this and not letting me into a party JUST BECAUSE IM A DERVISH. i mean you have got to agree that dervish are not being treated as well as they should.

it seems that almost everyone hates them! the worse part is that the nf missions are hard to do with heroes. well anyway this is my thread about people treating dervish wrong.

thanks

Just to clarify - I've not read the rest of this thread I'm only responding to this.

I used to feel this way...As soon as I saw the armor level of dervishes I thought "Yup, the Nightfall Sin". I wont say I was totally wrong because you still get some morons who cannot play them and die in 2 seconds but I am pleasantly surprised at how good they are. On the odd occaision I decide to go with a human group I don't mind having one in my group. THe only thing I don't like is when I'm invited into a group by someone who then proceeds to invite 5 dervishes...it's not dervish hate - it's just not a balanced team

I reckon when I've finished off my other characters I may try Dervish for myself. I still can't stand Assassins though

The one thing which may annoy me though is the enchantments. Have you ever noticed the Margonite Dervishes? They spend about 30 seconds applying enchantments...if you ever want to kill an AI dervish just have someone sat next to them echoing Chilblains....they wont fight then...they'll just keep putting their enchants back on!

ogami_ito · Dec 12, 2006, 05:36 PM // 17:36

I think 5 Dervishes on a team could work well. Heck, I did a great run in Sorrow's Furnish with 6 warriors and 2 henchy monks (all the other humans were dumb barrage rangers who would not invite warriors into the group). 5 dervs, (with two goining D/P with Go for The Eyes!, 1 going Melandru/Wearying, 1 Balthazar, and 1 Ebon Dusk user) coupled with 2 monks (one Healing Light / Dwana's Kiss , the other spams Aegis and Reversal of Fortune )and an MM / orders of pain necro would absolutely kick butt...and do well even against enchant removing mobs.

Isil`Zha · Dec 12, 2006, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by crucifix

i really wish people would start to read. The reason i hate dervs is because the entire class is based solely on enchants. its too conditional for my liking and i like to have a bit of a backup for a class instead of just having one lifeline. what happens when a dervs enchants fall? they die.

Wrong - first, they can be reapplied fairly quickly, and secondly - when it comes to Mesmers or other enchantment stripping classes, I simply change my tactics to use their stripping in my favor.

As mentioned, losing enchants gives energy back for a Dervish - and then, almost every Dervish enchantment either is beneficial to the Dervish when ended, or does harm to adjacent/nearby foes when ended.

Fallen Hunter · Dec 13, 2006, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Well, the dervish is probably my favourite class. I have finished the game with my dervish. I did have trouble getting into groups, but it was usually because they already had one rather than their prejudice against them. I have out-tanked warriors with my dervish. Using enough enchantments, you can be nearly invincible! I don't see what the problem is. I mean, comparing them to an assassin? I have an assassin, and i know what they mean - in the wrong hands (namely mine :P) they are squishy as hell. Even in the right hands if you can take their initial attacks you can usually kill them easily. However, the dervish is capable of absorbing a lot of damage, perhaps even more than a warrior with the right build. With the right build you can do A LOT more damage than a warrior, and dervishes are unmatched for inflicting conditions. And even teams with too many dervishes can be good - I got shiro down to 1/4 health in gate of madness in a team with 5 dervishes.

Cold · Dec 13, 2006, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Soul Barbs anyone? Just kidding

Dervish is a bad tank, if you want a tank on enchantments take earth ele:
Obsidian Flesh, +20 armor
Kinetic Armor, +92 armor
Armor of Earth, +67 armor
Stoneflesh Aura, -37 dmg reduction
Sliver Armor, 55% block, +41dmg for each attack or spell
Stone Daggers - for Kinetic Armor
Glyph of Elemental Power
Channeling - for energy

Now we talking. This IS a TANK that takes 0 dmg even from lvl28 mobs. Plus it's a killing machine with Sliver Armor on.

And here is my warrior, just one interrupt. Try it with dervish and post here the picture

Etrik · Dec 13, 2006, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by whobitz

Hold up, lets look at this again...
Distracting Shot, Savage Shot, Magebane Shot {E}, Punishing Shot {E}, Broad Head Arrow {E} (indirectly), Disrutping Lunge, and Concussion Shot are regular attack skills that interrupt. Incendiary Arrows and Choking Gas are preps that cause interruption. Along the lines of BHA with dazed, you could even go as far as Smoke Trap or Bestial Mauling (though that gets into KDs and would have to include warrior KDs and even stuff like Spike Trap). So that's 8 skills, 9 with BHA (10 with Smoke Trap) that interrupt for Rangers. I guess warriors have 6 or 7 (adding to jesh's list with Agonizing Chop and Dwarven Battle Stance). Granted, Disrupting Lunge isn't always great, and Incendiary Arrows can't be kept up, but Savage Slash is 10 energy with a 20 sec. recharge, Critical Chop and Agonizing Chop are both conditional, the latter having normal attack speed, just like Disrupting Chop. Rangers also have 3 elites dedicated to interupting, warriors have 1 that costs 9 adrenaline and Dwarven Battle Stance. All in all, ranger interrupts are just better. See here for a not really complete list.

Well that was fun, but back on topic, it's not amazingly hard for a Dervish to maintain 109 armor with ~17 damage reduction from foes with conditions (try using Veil of Thorns for that cripple mentioned earlier) and 9+ regen. On the other hand, it's not hard for a warrior to maintain 170+ armor, 300 or even 600+ hp (900+ for a period of time), and have no KDs. The difference is armor vs. self heals (though imo Warriors will always win when facing enough enchantment removal until a good Vow of Silence tank build is made). Those examples are both in a highly tanking sense, and that's probably only useful somewhere like DoA; otherwise, the "tanks" should have some defense with some offense (seems to be the popular opinion) whether they be warrior or dervish.

There will never be a good VoS tank, because VoS means your monks can't heal you. It's highly conditional and - imho - limited to 1v1 skirmishes against casters. You can pwn them then, however.

jesh · Dec 13, 2006, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

I wasn't trying to say that Warrior made better interupters than Rangers, just that you really don't require a skill bar full of interupts to get the job done.

As for the recharge on Savage Slash youll note I paired it with Flurish for instant recharging.
....................

As for Warrior builds I was in no way suggesting that interuption was the ONLY build a war can run. If you read my whole post you'll note a named two other builds my Warrior runs, and those are just a very small handfull of all the diffent builds that I use.

You don't need a skillbar full, but apparently you need an elite. A ranger with Savage Shot can do the same as your whole skillbar, most likely - and without using up their elite.
I did read your whole post, and I did see the other warrior builds you mentioned. If you read my post, you would know what I think of them.
Anyways, if you're taking a D/W, you can just as easily use Distracting Blow as a warrior can.